Category talk:Cast spell
Category name Since all spells can be cast from items, limiting "item spells" to those that cannot be cast by playable classes is a bit of a misnomer. Perhaps another name for this category would be better? One idea I had was "Non-player spells", but that does not seem quite right either. --The Krit 09:20, July 20, 2011 (UTC) * I didn't like item (only) spells as it seemed wordy. Perhaps item specific spells might capture this better. The only issue I see with this phrasing is that item spells overlap some monster abilities. WhiZard 01:35, July 21, 2011 (UTC) :* Seeing no further suggestions I am requesting this page to be renamed to "Category:Item specific spells". WhiZard 23:30, July 22, 2011 (UTC) :* Reading the Wikia guide for category moving I managed to do this by myself. I had thought there might have been an easier way. WhiZard 00:01, July 23, 2011 (UTC) :* Actually, I'm not that fond of "item specific spells" either, but I haven't come up with a better suggestion yet (hence my delay in replying ;) ). I don't like using the word "item" because being able to use these spells for items strikes me more as a leftover use than the primary intended use. I was thinking of maybe "other spells" (with "other" meaning not cleric, not druid, etc.) but that might be too vague. On the other hand, with an intro sentence at the top of the category, it might work. (Maybe "These spells were defined by BioWare but not assigned to the spellbook of any class. Consequentially, they are only available when cast from items."?) --The Krit 00:25, July 23, 2011 (UTC) ::* So Category:Other spells is what you are suggesting. That could be less inclusive than the item property cast spell. Some, like rogue's cunning, sequencers, garlic, alcohol, grenades, crafting, dyes, etc. were designed specifically for items. Others like greater ability spells seem to be disabled spells. Still others, like dragon breaths and manticore spikes are already relegated to monster abilities. WhiZard 01:25, July 23, 2011 (UTC) :::* Rogue's cunning is designed specifically for an item? I know of garlic as an item, and grenades as items, but an item that is rogue's cunning? (Not something like a potion that casts rogue's cunning, but an item that is intrinsically rogue's cunning, the way garlic is intrinsically useful against undead.) --The Krit 11:02, July 23, 2011 (UTC) ::::* The script's naming is "Rogue's Cunning AKA Potion of Extra Thieving" WhiZard 13:44, July 23, 2011 (UTC) :::::* Ah, OK, but that's a potion, and the things you get from potions are spells (in the colloquial sense). It's still in a different class than things like garlic, where the "spell" simulates using an item, rather than releasing a spell that was stored earlier. --The Krit 16:50, July 24, 2011 (UTC) :::* I'm overloading you with replies I guess, but I should also mention that I think you are on the right track here -- we are possibly not looking at one new category, but three (items, abandoned spells, and monster abilities). --The Krit 11:30, July 23, 2011 (UTC) * Actually I'm going to post the list of item only that I found. Maybe that would help in determining a name (note this list expands with later comments in order to later be used as the final product). :: Rogue's Cunning :: Greater (Ability) :: Alcohol (All) :: Belladona :: Garlic :: Activate Item (All) :: Grenade (All including chicken) :: Dragon Breath (Many) :: Deck of Many Things :: Negative Plane Avatar (Deck Avatar) :: Capture Enemy (Item Teleport) :: Rod of Wonder :: Spellstaff :: Charger :: Decharger :: Haste Slow (67% haste 33% slow) :: Create ShadowFiend (80% builder defined #1, 20% builder defined #2) :: Summon Elemental :: Powerstone :: Cure Critical Wounds (other) :: Restoration (other) :: Ioun Stones (All) :: Lich Lyrics :: Twin Fists :: Flameberry :: Iceberry :: Prayer Wand :: Manticore Spikes :: Crafting :: Dyes :: Sequencer (Use and Clear) :: Intelligent Weapon Talk (Enseric Dialogue) :: Aura of Glory- Cursed :: Tide of Battle :: Evil Blight :: Poison Weapon :: Etherealness (monster ability) :: Add Item Property (aka Light Gem socket) (works only with lights and keen see des_crft_props.2da) :WhiZard 01:36, July 23, 2011 (UTC) :* There is one item in this list I do not recognize -- "Store" under "Sequencer". You store spells in sequencers by casting the spells on the sequencer item, not by using a property on the item. Also, I do not see a "Store Sequencer" entry in spells.2da, just "Clear Sequencer" and the three entries for using a sequencer (corresponding to being able to store 1, 2, or 3 spells). Also, is "Summon Shadowfiend" spell number 564? When I looked at that, I concluded it did nothing but visual effects because the creature blueprint was missing. --The Krit 11:11, July 23, 2011 (UTC) ::*Yes I realize "store" was a typo, I am removing it from the list. Summon Shadowfiend by default summons a token creature, it would need the creatures defined to work correctly. When making the list I was going through iprp_spells.2da looking for the non-standards that used a spell.2da reference, and then just looking through the spell.2da entry's script. WhiZard 13:36, July 23, 2011 (UTC) :* Three other spells to add to the list: "Aura of Glory - Cursed", evil blight, and tide of battle. --The Krit 11:24, July 23, 2011 (UTC) ::* Added. Though before I link more articles to the category, I would like a name firmly decided, because it is a pain to move categories with a large number of articles. WhiZard 13:36, July 23, 2011 (UTC) :::* You're thinking. :) --The Krit 16:59, July 24, 2011 (UTC) ::* Putting up a list of item spells that use the spell hook. These could possibly go in a separate category of disabled spells (though Rogue's cunning does seem to be more of a potion only and seems to follow bonus-wise the other potion only magical abilities in 3.0 DnD, e.g. potion of hide, move silently, swim, etc. give a +10 bonus to the respective skill for an hour). :::: Rogue's Cunning :::: Greater (Ability) :::: Haste Slow :::: Create ShadowFiend :::: Cure Critical Wounds (other) :::: Restoration (other) :::: Aura of Glory - Cursed :::: Tide of Battle :::: Evil Blight ::: WhiZard 16:06, July 23, 2011 (UTC) :::* Is there any chance that non-item spells (e.g. aura of hellfire and hell inferno which are both user type 1, both use *_s0_* scripts and both unavailable to players) would fit into the same category as the above spells? If so, perhaps the above list could be an overlap of categories. WhiZard 02:00, July 24, 2011 (UTC) :::* "Abandoned" would be more accurate than "disabled". --The Krit 16:59, July 24, 2011 (UTC) :* What about those 2? Dunno if Negative plane avatar is the create shadow that you say above. :::Capture enemy :::Negative plane avatar ::Nah?ILKAY 16:49, July 23, 2011 (UTC) ::* Negative Plane Avatar is Deck Avatar and Capture enemy is Item Teleport. Additionally I found Poison Weapon and Etherealness (monster ability. I am updating the main list. WhiZard 17:24, July 23, 2011 (UTC) ::* Teleport projectile is an on-hit spell, and we already have a category for those. --The Krit 16:59, July 24, 2011 (UTC) :::* Yep, and this can also be accessed as an item power, that seems to have limited application, as it requires you to be in touch range and for the target you are teleporting to be hostile. This may be a way to get to the other side of a hostile creature that is blocking the way, but does not work for long distance teleporting like the on-hit bolts do. WhiZard 20:27, July 24, 2011 (UTC) OK, going back to the topic of category name, I think I have an idea I like well enough to propose. First, create one or two new subcategories of "Spells" -- "Non-class spells" for the greater (ability) spells, rogue's cunning, tide of battle, and evil blight; and maybe "Incomplete spells" for cursed aura of glory, create shadowfiend, and haste/slow, or possibly just include those under "non-class spells" if it is too difficult to determine if BioWare abandoned a spell before it was considered finished. Also into one of these subcategories would go cure critical wounds (other) and restoration (other). --The Krit 17:34, July 24, 2011 (UTC) * Sounds good, would "non-class spells" include aura of hellfire and hell inferno? WhiZard 20:27, July 24, 2011 (UTC) :* Those names sound more like monster abilities. I'd have to look at them to know where I would classify them. (And I have been intending to look at them, but I keep forgetting. Maybe later this week.) --The Krit 18:24, July 27, 2011 (UTC) ::* They are used in HotU by the Valsharess, only hell inferno uses the spellhook.WhiZard 21:43, July 27, 2011 (UTC) :* They appear to be most appropriately classified as monster abilities. They are not available to any class, and they are not available as "cast spell" item properties. It looks like the only way to access them (barring custom content, as usual) is to assign them to a creature through the "Special Abilities" tab in the Toolset. They get filtered with spells instead of with monster abilities, but for all other practical purposes, they appear to be monster abilities. --The Krit 18:54, August 4, 2011 (UTC) Second, a category called "item powers" for the spells that are more-or-less intrinsic to the type of item they were created for -- alcohol, belladona, crafting, deck of many things & its avatar, dyes, electrifier charge & discharge, flameberry & iceberry, garlic, grenades, intelligent weapon (talk to), ioun stones, lich lyrics, light (and keen) gems, poison, rod of wonder, powerstone, sequencer use & clear, spellstaff, transmogrifying wand, and twin fists. Possibly also including activate item/''unique power'' and summon elemental in this (or maybe they would be better classified under "Non-class spells"). One thing to note about these powers is that we do have articles for a number of them, or at least for the standard item that uses them. --The Krit 17:34, July 24, 2011 (UTC) * I like the term item powers, it gets around the "spell" misnomer. Summon elemental looks like an inherent property of its associated SoU stone, and the script definitely does not support making it available as a normal spell.WhiZard 20:27, July 24, 2011 (UTC) :* I was thinking along the same lines for summon elemental, but since it is not as clear-cut a situation as the others, I figured it was judicious to leave it off the main list. ;) --The Krit 18:24, July 27, 2011 (UTC) Third, a category called "Cast spell" that would be a subcategory of "Item properties". This would have "Item powers" as a subcategory, and contain articles for those monster abilities that can be used as "cast spell" item properties (dragon breath, manticore spikes, and monster etherealness). This would be analogous to the way category:on-hit organizes the on-hit spells and powers. --The Krit 17:34, July 24, 2011 (UTC) * I guess cast spell was along the terms of what I was thinking for this category. Would non-class spells be a subcategory, in the exclusion note at the top, or an overlap? WhiZard 20:27, July 24, 2011 (UTC) :* I was thinking either have the entire spells category as a subcategory or at least provide a link to it. Maybe also make special mention of the non-class spells since this would be their primary use, but I would avoid having both categories (spells and non-class spells) as direct subcategories of "cast spell". Hmmm... perhaps the non-class spells as a subcategory, and a link to either spell or category:spells in the intro sentence? --The Krit 18:24, July 27, 2011 (UTC) ::* The last suggestion seems worth the shot as it mirrors what was done with on-hit. So cast spell being a sub-category of item properties, linking to spell and having its own subcategories of item powers and non-class spells, and also containing without category monster abilities used by items is where I think it stands.WhiZard 21:43, July 27, 2011 (UTC) Protection in category? not sure how you guys are looking at this but i think the properties "protection from alignment evil" - "protection from alignment good" are also item only right? --Pimpernell 23:42, August 4, 2011 (UTC) * No, protection from evil and protection from good are subspells of protection from alignment. They are able to be cast by bards, clerics, paladins, sorcerers, and wizards. --The Krit 23:52, August 4, 2011 (UTC)